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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Well, I guess it serves me right to write
something off the cuff, exactly what I was afraid of. I think you missed a
large part of my point, which I tried to catch up with at the end of my email.
I’m not trying to get people to stop using NFS as much as taking a
different perspective on things. Feel free to ignore me. </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It’s the use of NFS, or rather any
filesharing for things that really shouldn’t be used nowadays. You are
asking for specific bad things and solid proof as to why NFS is bad, and like I
said it’s about solving the correct problem. It’s about
saying “here’s my problem, what’s my solution” instead of
saying “here’s my solution, what problems can I fix”. Feel
free to give me some specific problems and I’d be happy to suggest
something that may be more optimal for that task. Maybe I can explain it better
with some examples:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As an example, years ago before networked database
servers we used to use flat files and DBM files (if we wanted to get really
crazy) for our database needs. There was no Mysql, MSQL, postgres..etc.. So,
how did we make it so that we could have multiple “database clients”???
Simple, use NFS!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We’d make one machine an NFS server
with the flat “database” files, and all the other machines would
remotely mount the machine and update the same file using the typical .lock
type of contention resolution. It was simple. It “worked”. Later if
anybody would tell me of using a networked database server like Mysql, I’d
laugh at him and tell him they’re crazy!!! NFS works great! I have tons
of benchmarks for it! It works seamlessly! NFS has been in use forever! It works
with <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">NIS</st1:place></st1:City> and
LDAP! It’s STABLE! Sure, if you have the systems configured poorly, NFS
can have “bad” performance but overall it’s got great
performance!. (all this sound familiar??)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>However, nowadays we’d all laugh at
that NFS person, now that we have such things as Mysql and networked SQL. We
know that using the mysql approach is a ton better, even if we’re just
storing BLOBS with just one or two columns (i.e. making pretty much a file
sharing database). Why is Mysql so much better, because it’s a protocol that’s
_<i><span style='font-style:italic'>context</span></i>_ sensitive to the
metadata that is being used. Same goes for IMAP. IMAP is simply an
email-centric file sharing protocol. You don’t load up blocks of data in
IMAP, you ask for an email Header, or Envelope, or Body, or Attachment. You can’t
do that in NFS. In NFS you simply get that whole file. The NFS server says “here
you go, do what you want with it”. NFS is very dumb. Nowaday’s
there are _<i><span style='font-style:italic'>smart</span></i>_ ways of
accessing data via network connections. We no longer need dumb, flat
filesharing. (unless of course you _<i><span style='font-style:italic'>really</span></i>_
do want to share files, then sure, it’s fine if that’s the problem
you are trying to solve). There are often specific protocols and mechanisms
nowadays that optimize the information and requests. Just because you can
transfer a 10G file at wires speeds does not necessarily mean it needs to be
done. For example, to mark an email message as “Read”, you need to
simply add a single header line in the email message. Using NFS, you would
roughly transfer the entire email message (lets say it’s 1M) to the
client, it’ll update the one line, and send it back. Yes, you can send
that information _<i><span style='font-style:italic'>real fast</span></i>_,
arguably as fast as possible. But what If I said that _<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>none</span></i>_ of that needed to be done if you
just sent a single IMAP command to the server to mark it as read. You’d
need to only send about 20 bytes to the server. Now comparing the two, it’s
no question as to what is faster, has better performance, has less network and
system impact..etc..etc..Again, I’m not questioning NFS, I’m
questioning the need for network filesharing solving this task to begin with.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Another example is that I have heard many
times and know individuals that have setup SAMBA in order to do filesharing
between two Linux machines. It’s actually not uncommon. As many of you
would probably say, it’s not quite the “right” way to solve
that problem (maybe we mean more efficiently or a dozen other words than “right”?).
Why does that person do it? Usually they don’t know of NFS or know how to
set it up, so they use what they know and feel comfortable with. Someone
telling him to use NFS will usually get a response of what I’m getting “What’s
wrong with SAMBA? I did benchmarks, it works for reasons XYZ. Prove to me why
SAMBA is bad”, when in reality we’re just trying to help and give
them additional information and an additional perspective. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As for some specific benchmarkings mentioned.
Simply downloading a file does not constitute proper benchmarking. You need
some good concurrency and alternative things to compare it to. What was the
speed of the same file via a HTTP GET?? (again, taking a different perspective,
HTTP is really just a read only file sharing protocol..actually quite fast..).
or how long did FTP’ing the file take? Now how about 10,000 files and about
100,000 random retrievals. The last thing you want to do is download a large
file and say “oh, it works! And it’s fast!!!” Heck, you
could possibly get 2 people on the system sharing files and the whole thing can
go to pot due to contention, not to mention you have no base network
alternative to compare it to. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Lastly, I was talking about Unix RPC.
Theres a reason why nobody uses unix RPC anymore..comparing SMB, Windows, or
even SOAP is like comparing apples to oranges. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Please do not take me the wrong way, I do
not intend on starting a flame war, I’m just trying to help get
people to see things a little differently, and some could say
non-conventionally. Like when I tell them HTTP is really just a read only file
sharing protocol, they look at me like I’m crazy.. </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Please also do not take offense to me
saying “Right way” or “Wrong way”. I’m not
questioning or even saying anyone’s way is right or wrong, that is not my
intention. If it works, GREAT!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I hope to help,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-Mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> nflug-bounces@nflug.org [mailto:nflug-bounces@nflug.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>ptgoodman<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 26, 2006
7:16 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">nflug@nflug.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [nflug] NFS noac
option</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I always ( and only ) feel compelled to reply to this
group when someone pontificates on some issue, criticizes individuals for not
doing some ( or many ) things in a way he approves. I used NFS. It had its
limitations and while annoying at times, I found those limitations benefited me
in ways I did not anticipate. It's true that I did not face many of the issues
most of you have to face.<br>
<br>
I guess it would helpful if Mark could list for each and every possible job or
task and variation thereof, the "right tool" or application for that
job. He can't. I've always believed that it was best for the individual setting
up and/or making use of a system to make the choice and live with their choice
until they decide they need to change for reasons they see as appropriate.<br>
<br>
I think Mark is doing a service in initating a dialog,<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Musone wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Oh, no don't get me wrong..<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It's not somebody using NFS for some purpose that makes NFS bad.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It's that NFS is just plain bad..<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>In a nutshell, NFS is a "jack of all trades". NFS was made a long time ago<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to solve a problem for which no solutions existed. This was back when hardly<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>anything had reliable, standard protocols, and when you had a 1Mbps coax<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>network was a huge deal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Because of that, and the lack of anything even remotely "networkable", the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>best solution was to use NFS. By using NFS, you could essentially turn any<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>program into a "networked" program without ever needing to deal with a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>socket. You just use NFS as a wrapper..<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>With that said, NFS used (uses) UDP, because back then the networks were<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>simply too slow to handle TCP. NFS was quite unreliable, slow, and until<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>lockd appeared, file locking was non-existant. (yes, it uses TCP<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>now..whoopiee)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So whenever I talk about NFS, what's really important is what people seem to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>gloss over, which is "What problem are we trying to solve". In terms of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"filesharing"..which I want to use the term loosely, because as I mentioned<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>before, NFS is actually used significantly more for networking than<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>filesharing. Please keep in mind, yes, you are _using_ filesharing with NFS<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to be able to solve some problem. Just because you are using the filesystem<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>uses of NFS to solve a problem, does not necessarily mean you really are<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>using or need to use true filesharing. This goes back to my original<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>question of what problem are you trying to solve?? In the answer of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>exporting a mail spool, the real problem is concurrent remote and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>distributed email access..NOT sharing of a mail file..big difference, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>it's important to realize that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So just talking about filesharing specifically, there is a continuum of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>filesharing methods and solutions. Generally, there are two mutually<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>exclusive core needs when dealing with filesharing:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>1. Speed ---Gotta get the files back and forth quickly!!<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2. File Contention --Need to make sure that if two people write to the same<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>file, we can deal with it cleanly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It is important to note that these are mutually exclusive. The better you<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>are at one, the worse you are at the other. Lets take a quick example of a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>poor man's filesharing: cat'ing the file to a network pipe that just cat's<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>it to it's local filesystem:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>System 1<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> "cat myfile | nc -u system2 55512"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>System 2<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"nc -u -l -p 55512 > myfile"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>That's close to as fast as you can get, but if two people send the file at<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the same time..big problems!!! You all have dealt with it I'm sure when<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>trying to deal with FTP and God forbid shared FTP upload locations. That's<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>another example.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>That's one extreme, the one where speed is the most important and file<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>contention is least (or non-existent)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The other extreme is in all the fancy schmancy internet distributed file<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>systems, such as AFS (is it still even alive) and CIFS, and you can even<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>stretch your thinking with things like CVS and SVN. The key point is this<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>extreme, you are dealing with and assuming offline modifications of files,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>synchronizing of information..etc..HUGE file contention issues..these are<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>all by the very nature of needing to compare literally bit by bit and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>figuring out resolutions for conflicts, are very slow.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So where's NFS in all of this? Smack dab in the middle: <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Kinda slow with filesharing (or one could say kinda fast with<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>filesharing)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Kinda ok with file contention (gotta love those stale nfs file<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>handles)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Other key facets of NFS -- all because we're dealing with a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>FILESHARING application:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Hugely concerning about security<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Need to deal with userid's, permissions<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Need to deal with filesystem specific attributes<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Need to deal with literally legacy way to doing things (NFS<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>handles built into the superblock..Wah??!!!!)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> File locking is touch and go between heterogeneous systems<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Mounts,exportfs,lockd,portmap..any more crazy applications?!<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> ..And lastly, overall we're dealing again with a _legacy_<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>application, things like relying on portmap and RPC calls..hello..RPC dies<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>12 years ago. Is NFS like the _only_ thing that even still uses RPC??<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So I think that my soapbox completely off the top of my head. Overall:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>If you are needing _real_ filesharing, why pick a jack of all trades versus<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>using the correct filesharing application that is best suited for your<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>needs..it's all about using the right tool for the job.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Secondly, and most importantly, I'm less bashing NFS and more bashing the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_use_ of NFS for elements that should not be needed. Most people use NFS<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>again as a quick way to solve a networking problem versus using a _real_<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>networked approach. i.e. why in the world would people NFS mount a mail<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>spool versus read the email via pop or imap, a PROTOCOL designed<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>specifically for the type of data and metadata that is being served and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>needed. Nowadays there's protocols for _everything_ and just like the above<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>statement, it's all about using the right tool for the job. Too many times I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>see people bash Windows saying things like "I use Linux because it's the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>right tool for the job", and then I turn around and see them use the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>fat,bloated, and wrong tool for the job once they pick the OS.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Using the right tool for the job is not just about picking Linux, it's also<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>about using the correct application and knowing your problems and needs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-Mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: <a
href="mailto:nflug-bounces@nflug.org">nflug-bounces@nflug.org</a> [<a
href="mailto:nflug-bounces@nflug.org">mailto:nflug-bounces@nflug.org</a>] On Behalf Of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jesse Jarzynka<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:01 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: <a
href="mailto:nflug@nflug.org">nflug@nflug.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [nflug] NFS noac option<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark Musone wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Oh. I guess I can directly give a quick answer with a question: what<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>problem<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>are you trying to solve that requires the need for nfs mounted mail<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> I don't have any. I just don't understand why someone using NFS for <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>an unintended purpose makes NFS bad.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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